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January 14, 2004

"KVETCH is Dead": Community in adverse technological contexts

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Posted by Clay Shirky

Joshua Schachter (inventor of del.icio.us) sent me this nice addition to the literature of "Well, we didn't expect the community to do X!", this time from the euology of Kvetch.com (via the Wayback Machine -- all hail Brewster.) Kvetch was meant to be a write-only complaints board -- you could go and kvetch about whatever was on your mind. You would also see other people's kvetching served up randomly, and of course your kvetching would be added to the random pool for others to see. There was no identity, and no search. And yet a community (kvommunity?) of sorts grew up. The eulogy is short but scattered -- I quote the relevant portions here:
*People try to connect even in the harshest climates*. I never expected this site to actually connect people. After all, the posting was random, and there were thousands of posts. And yet, people tried. They posted responses to other posts, and posted them dozens of times to increase their likelihood of getting seen. Stupid, but valiant. *Wherever there are people, there's the potential for love*. I know that Kvetch was responsible for at least one marriage. A union born of kvetching. Amazing. *Every collaborative project eventually outgrows its owner*. You start a project like this because you have a certain way of looking at the world. But when you open it up for group participation, it always changes. In this case, the amount of hostility the site attracted was sometimes shocking. For me, a kvetch is supposed to be a clever observation of one of life's funny little annoyances. But for others, it was an excuse to really let out their deep dark angry side. And there's nothing wrong with that, I suppose. It's just not what I wanted to cultivate. *Identity is important, even in ephemera like this*. Posters created specific identities and protected them vigorously, even though there were no memberships so anyone could post under any name. It lead to some very passionate turf wars over names that anyone could claim.
I love that last one -- it reminds me of Old Man Murray (now archived), a brilliant gaming site whose bulletin boards were nothing but puerile filth, lovingly written. On OMM, there was no 'identity management' whatsoever -- you just signed yourself in under a particular nickname, but anyone else could post under your name, and you could post under anyone else's as well. And yet there was not only identity, it was so strong that when one poster posted under another's handle, not only could the community usually tell it was a fake, we could often guess who faked it. Our identity systems, and often our reputation systems, try to reduce identity to a question of globally unique IDs (GUIDs), but a GUID is not an identity, and an identity is not a GUID. If people could invent and defend identity on kvetch, which had not only no identity management but _no login_, then we're missing something in our current approaches to digital identity, which are often both unsubtle and overengineered. "Identity is important, even in ephemera like this."

Comments (4) + TrackBacks (0) | Category: social software


COMMENTS

1. Matt on January 14, 2004 3:01 PM writes...

(FYI: the link to the Kvetch summary at the wayback is missing from the post)

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2. Clay Shirky on January 14, 2004 3:39 PM writes...

I r a idjit. Fixed, thanks.

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3. Lucas on January 15, 2004 12:03 AM writes...

I would have figured Clay to be the caliber of man who enjoys the puerile filth of Old Man Murray, even if he had posted anonymously. (and hopefully he'll know whether or not I mean this sarcastically :)

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4. Derek on January 23, 2004 1:24 PM writes...

Hi all! I'm Derek Powazek. I started Kvetch. Sorry the site's offline now. I never bothered to set it back up when I changed hosts.

Kvetch was started back in 1997. I think there was a much stronger aversion to signing up/logging in back then. People just didn't want to do it.

It's funny to think about now, in the era of Friendster and all its clones calling out for you to sign up and sell out your friends.

I actually wrote about the site a bit more in my book, Design for Community: http://www.designforcommunity.com/

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