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December 7, 2005
Sanger on Seigenthaler’s criticism of Wikipedia
Posted by Clay Shirky
Larry Sanger, in regards to John Seigenthaler’s criticism of Wikipedia:
I have long worried that something like this would happen—from the very start of Wikipedia, in fact. Last year I wrote a paper, “Why Collaborative Free Works Should Be Protected by the Law” (here’s another copy). When Seigenthaler interviewed me for his column, I sent him a copy of the paper and he agreed that it was prophetic. It is directly relevant to the part of Seigenthaler’s column that says: “And so we live in a universe of new media with phenomenal opportunities for worldwide communications and research—but populated by volunteer vandals with poison-pen intellects. Congress has enabled them and protects them.” That was a part of Seigenthaler’s column that bothered me: what exactly does Seigenthaler want Congress to do?
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1. Daniel Brandt on December 7, 2005 12:37 PM writes...
I have a sense of what Mr. Seigenthaler wants to do, because he told me on the telephone two days ago. He wants hearings on Section 230.
Mr. Seigenthaler wants to shift the burden for identifying the perpetrator of libels and falsehoods. At the same time, he doesn't want the government to restrict the press or anyone's First Amendment rights in any way at all.
The way he described it, you could shift the burden by changing the law so that Internet Service Providers would evaluate the plaintiff's evidence, and decide themselves whether revealing the customer's identity might be appropriate. If the decision is yes, at that point the ISP notifies the customer, who is given the opportunity to initiate legal proceedings to enjoin the ISP from revealing his identity.
Permalink to Comment2. Larry Sanger on December 7, 2005 2:04 PM writes...
Very interesting!
Of course, I'm not sure the right/privilege of revealing identities should be left up to the judgment of ISPs. But that policy might have solved Seigenthaler's particular problem--that is, if Bell South agreed to release the identity of his libeller.
Permalink to Comment3. Ta bu shi da yu on December 7, 2005 11:04 PM writes...
Yes, it would be interesting and good for Wikipedia. However, what makes you think that an ISP would not abuse this priviledge? What checks and balances would need to be created to stop abuse?
Permalink to Comment4. Frank on December 8, 2005 7:42 AM writes...
Great! Your “Why Collaborative Free Works Should Be Protected by the Law” is quite interesting thing. Thanks for posting the link.
Permalink to Comment5. CpILL on December 8, 2005 11:55 AM writes...
So your solution to malicious attacks on a massive user contribution system is to threaten them legally, one by one. That’s brilliant man. Seems to have worked for the record industry.
Not only is this Mr. Seigenthaler is obviously a throw back to the Macarthur era in his way of thinking but hasn't understood the mass movement called the Internet that has occurred over the last 15 years or the fundamental principle behind Wikipedia, which is 'free' and 'open' contribution. 'Free' Would be the same as freedom of press which requires sources to be anonyms and is one of the major attractions of the internet. ‘Open’ implies that ANYONE can contribute whether you think they are malicious or not. Who is to decide this anyway?
The answer to this last question of late would be ‘the community’ as its not only trendy at the moment but practical when you consider the shear volume of information that must be sifted though. Lost of unaided work that is getting done at the moment based on trust.
Don’t start to fear your neighbour guys. Wikipedias very existence, the increasable amount of information that it has accumulated to date, is based on trusting the anonymous population. 1% of trouble is not reason to turn on the 99% that have gotten it this far.
The correct answer to the problem is not to try and stop the hits coming, but to make Wikipedias tougher. The beauty of the Wiki system is that you can roll back changes and so any ‘damage’ done can be undone. If someone went on a rampage for 4 hours destroying as much as possible, it could be undone in a matter of minutes (if all contributors are forced to login).
Always remember there are more goodys that badys, and that’s why Wikipedia is where it is today. However you will never be able to stop the political opportunists from taking advantage of the hysteria and doing the real damage…
Permalink to Comment6. thisisforjunk666 on December 11, 2005 11:43 AM writes...
The reason why I find this worrying is not because of free speech and wikipeida. But if Seigenthaler does indeed make ISPs more likely to divulge information, it's not the defamed that will use it, but for the RIAA to piggy back and sue anyone with MP3s.
Permalink to Comment7. John on December 11, 2005 4:40 PM writes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Seigenthaler_Sr.&action=history
Based on the wikipedia history page, obviously some people are pretty pissed off at Seigenthaler.
Permalink to Comment8. genevieve tucker on December 14, 2005 5:46 PM writes...
Clay, I'd like to pass this on to a librarians' mailing list, but could you please supply a link for where Larry's remarks first appeared? Or has he spoken to you? It's not clear.
Permalink to CommentVery interesting post, thanks.
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Permalink to Comment10. Jerry Ward on January 27, 2006 3:17 PM writes...
Could Mr. Seigenthaler not have simply registered and edited the articles in which he was erroneously or maliciously described as an "assassin" to accurately reflect his actual history?
Permalink to Comment11. josse on February 13, 2006 6:04 PM writes...
he did, and he was reverted.
Permalink to Comment12. Anonymous on February 13, 2006 6:15 PM writes...
"The beauty of the Wiki system is that you can roll back changes and so any ‘damage’ done can be undone. If someone went on a rampage for 4 hours destroying as much as possible, it could be undone in a matter of minutes"
Permalink to CommentThe great thing about being a wiki-vandals is that i can roll back to the 'damaged' version just as easily as anyone can roll back to the 'undamaged' version.
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Permalink to CommentThe great thing about being a wiki-vandals is that i can roll back to the 'damaged' version just as easily as anyone can roll back to the 'undamaged' version.
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